Is Pibk Floyd Money Solo Easy

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Pink Floyd - Money Solo - Delay and Reverb setting.

Thread starter Tootone
Start date May 24, 2021

I am going off my nut.

The first section (of 3 sections) of the solo has delay and reverb that I just cannot fathom.

I have read Gilmourish and Kit Rae, and as much as I worship their massive and legendary contribution to the Gilmour fan community, their offered settings, IMO, are "close but no cigar".

What I can hear is

1) Either a double tracked guitar part (lagged) or a loud short slapback echo.

2) Perhaps a delay that gives a sense of being in a largish room or hall, I estimate to be in the region of 350ms, but I don't hear any 'echoes' or 'repeats'.

3) Maybe an additional Reverb, or maybe only reverb as per item #2. I have tried Plate, Spring, Room, Hall, Magneto and "Diffuse" Bloom reverbs (Strymon BigSky).

The sound seems tantalisingly obvious and initially, I thought, easy to reach.

But I have exhausted Gilmourish, Kit and my own lexicon of guesses.

Please, if you know the secret sauce, please share it.

In return I will be willing to share any sounds from my arsenal I might have nailed.

btw... I am wondering if it maybe a combi setting unique to the Binson Echorecs... but I don't have one (or two or three) laying around.

@Kit Rae ...

Quote of a Quote from Kit Rae's excellent site... hope you don't mind Kit?

As I recall, he (David) used a Hiwatt stack and a Binson Echorec for delays. David was very much in control of his sound system We rarely added effects to his guitar in the control room. Generally speaking, the sound on the album is pretty much what came out of his amp. - engineer Alan Parsons, on the 1973 Dark Side of the Moon sessions

This is why I am wondering if that sound is unique to the Binson Echorec. Then maybe Room/Ambient/Distant Micing.

:dunno

I could be overthinking all this of course. And maybe this is just a blindingly obvious effect I am not seeing. Not seeing the wood for the trees as they say.

I recently bought a Dawner Prince Boonar, and have been playing around with the settings. It's the closest I have heard to a real Binson. I also own a DIG and an El Capistan. The Boonar sounds different....could be what you are looking for?

My guess is as good as yours ... but I'd say that first solo is very likely double tracked (Bjorn says so too). I've listened through my studio monitors and going from left to right it sounds really double tracked to me.

For the rest ... dunno, maybe the swell mode on the Binson? Maybe in only one track or mixed in? Didn't they have a legendary plate reverb at Abbey road back then? The third solo was played on that 24 fret custom guitar, don't know about the first two.

I often fail to hear the repeats explicitly in Gilmour solos but delay is practically always there. Sometimes it is obvious but often it is not. maybe because the delays are ducking or set to the song tempo in a clever way?

I recently bought a Dawner Prince Boonar, and have been playing around with the settings. It's the closest I have heard to a real Binson. I also own a DIG and an El Capistan. The Boonar sounds different....could be what you are looking for?

Asking you a favour on Boonar.... I have been wondering if it is a head 1 + head 4 combination... my calculations make that approx 75ms Slapback + 300ms Echo.

Although if I try this on the Timeline it sounds very "dry", in-yer-face and splashy (obvious echo). The recording to me sounds very "wet".

I'm sure it's double tracked.
The giveaway : the last two notes are played by only 1 of the guitars, as opposed to the rest of the solo.
Also, the attack of the notes is not always in sync.

My guess is as good as yours ... but I'd say that first solo is very likely double tracked (Bjorn says so too). I've listened through my studio monitors and going from left to right it sounds really double tracked to me.
For the rest ... dunno, maybe the swell mode on the Binson? Maybe in only one track or mixed in? Didn't they have a legendary plate reverb at Abbey road back then? The third solo was played on that 24 fret custom guitar, don't know about the first two.

I often fail to hear the repeats explicitly in Gilmour solos but delay is practically always there. Sometimes it is obvious but often it is not. maybe because the delays are ducking or set to the song tempo in a clever way?

I read on Kits site something of which I am fully aware... DG has the knack of "hiding" the distinct echoes/repeats. So you sense them, but rarely hear them.

One "trick" he uses is setting the delay to tempo, so the echoes hide behind the notes you play.

My suspicions lie in a 1/4 triplet...

122BPM --> 328ms = 1/4 triplet

1/4 note is 491ms and I have already rejected this as it is too "cavernous".

If I use a ~ 310-350ms delay, the ambience seems to be in the right ball park, but, playing the solo note for note the echoes are clearly "visible" and pop up in the frequent rests between the notes (including with the band). If I turn down the mix on the repeats (to be not so obvious) then it starts to sound too dry again.

Also thought maybe running it into reverb to diffuse the repeats... but then it starts sounding too wet, or too busy.

I will keep at it. I have the bit between my teeth.

I'm sure it's double tracked.
The giveaway : the last two notes are played by only 1 of the guitars, as opposed to the rest of the solo.
Also, the attack of the notes is not always in sync.

I agree.

Double tracked as in

- 2 different recordings.

- same recording played left and right with a 30ms lag.

That's another thing I've been pulling my hair out over. If he played it twice, he played it hair for hair the same twice (which I am sure he was capable of doing).

Asking you a favour on Boonar.... I have been wondering if it is a head 1 + head 4 combination... my calculations make that approx 75ms Slapback + 300ms Echo.
Although if I try this on the Timeline it sounds very "dry", in-yer-face and splashy (obvious echo). The recording to me sounds very "wet".

A dry sound is the last word I would use to describe the Boonar. I do agree that my El Cap can sound a bit dry, but def not the Boonar. I will try the settings you mentioned above tho...and see how close it can get.

Last edited: May 24, 2021

I am going off my nut.
The first section (of 3 sections) of the solo has delay and reverb that I just cannot fathom.

I have read Gilmourish and Kit Rae, and as much as I worship their massive and legendary contribution to the Gilmour fan community, their offered settings, IMO, are "close but no cigar".

What I can hear is

1) Either a double tracked guitar part (lagged) or a loud short slapback echo.

2) Perhaps a delay that gives a sense of being in a largish room or hall, I estimate to be in the region of 350ms, but I don't hear any 'echoes' or 'repeats'.

3) Maybe an additional Reverb, or maybe only reverb as per item #2. I have tried Plate, Spring, Room, Hall, Magneto and "Diffuse" Bloom reverbs (Strymon BigSky).

The sound seems tantalisingly obvious and initially, I thought, easy to reach.

But I have exhausted Gilmourish, Kit and my own lexicon of guesses.

Please, if you know the secret sauce, please share it.

In return I will be willing to share any sounds from my arsenal I might have nailed.

I'm pretty certain both the Time and Money solos are heavily double-tracked. They feel loose enough to be separate takes. Particularly with the way I feel them drop out when he switches over to the dry middle section. However he did it, it's definitely a heavy dose of "studio magic'' that he never truly recreates on live versions.

btw... I am wondering if it maybe a combi setting unique to the Binson Echorecs... but I don't have one (or two or three) laying around.

DG was known to use head 4 on his Echorec almost exclusively (~300ms). The notable exception was the swell setting live in Pompeii IIRC. I agree with the above posters about double-tracking.

To approximate on your Timeline, you have a few options for single head Echorec emulations.

Use the dTape algorithm: In theory, magnetic drum echo is similar to using a tape echo with new tape and proper part alignment and relatively stable motor speed. Echorecs usually have high-passed repeats, which you can simulate by adjusting the low end contour. Adjust tape age to taste to match the song (general Echorec tones you'd want to have bright, new tape). Time for around 300ms, tape artifacts extremely low or off (w&f, crinkle), bias set to taste to match your rig and the song (I'd normally recommend minimum for extra highs, but for this song you might want that 50-75% depending how hot your pickups are).
Using the digital or dual mode with the tape EQ curve (filter maxed). Digital gives you good control over how high-passed your repeat(s) is (are) and you can add diffusion to get it to be felt more than heard. Grit should be low and modulation should be slow and very light if present at all. Dual can be useful if you lower the level of the second delay for more of a reverberant feel
Lofi with high sample rate but slightly lowered bit depth might also be worth trying with the filter control (not the filter type/shape) set like above. Other lofi artifacts should be off.
While typing, I thought of using the duck mode with the fastest or so release time. You can apply the same tricks from the digital/dual modes listed above.

Hope this helps!

A dry sound is the last word I would use to describe the Boonar. I do agree that my El Cap can sound a bit dry, but def not the Boonar. I will try the settings you mentioned above tho...and see how close it can get.

Maybe "stark" or "naked" would have been a better word. Besides, I was relating to my Timeline. I don't have a Boonar.

I can hear repeats fwiw. In my own experience, delay on guitar by itself can sound super obvious but in a mix its just "big". The repeats get lost in the mush.

Im dunno about double tracking. I listened to right and left side and it sounds like the same guitar to me. Could be re-amping with delay. IDK.

Live, I can hear obvious repeats. So, live if I cover Gilmour, Im not gonna worry about it.

I think I recall David himself stating that they used ADT on the first section. I think it was on the Classic Albums film of the making of DSOTM but my memory is hazy.

+1 on the Boonar. Other than the mammoth Volante, it's the best I've tried (especially for its diminutive size) in dialing great Gilmourish tape delays. A LOT of fun and tone chasing lies within the Boonar, no doubt.

The solo consists of three parts. The first part is certainly double tracked . Two different solo parts that are almost identical but are a little different here and there . On one part he uses more distortion than on the other . I have learned the heavy distorted solo from a book called Dr. Licks years ago

The second part of the solo is not double tracked and completely dry without echo or reverb and not too much distortion

It seems to me that the third part is not double tracked with a very wet sound and with lots of distortion

When I play the solo I simply use my Boss tera echo pedal with all the knobs at twelve o clock . Different stuff and setting than David Gilmour used but it sounds pretty much the same with the same spaciousness

Last edited: May 24, 2021

Maybe "stark" or "naked" would have been a better word. Besides, I was relating to my Timeline. I don't have a Boonar.

I think I misspoke.... I wasn't referring to your Timeline... I was just making a comparison of some sorts... I was under the impression that the Timeline could do a drum delay. Anyway, yes the Boonar is a great pedal, and if you are after that DG tone, it's highly recommended. I know there is a new tube version of the Boonar due out soon, but I will bet the price will be sky high. The standard one... v2, which is what I have is great...and the price is more reasonable.

I am going off my nut.
The first section (of 3 sections) of the solo has delay and reverb that I just cannot fathom.

I have read Gilmourish and Kit Rae, and as much as I worship their massive and legendary contribution to the Gilmour fan community, their offered settings, IMO, are "close but no cigar".

I was not aware I had any Money solo album settings on my site? My Dark Side section is very old and in need of some updates and proper sound clips, so I probably should update it and add settings like I have on the rest of the site.

What I can hear is
1) Either a double tracked guitar part (lagged) or a loud short slapback echo.

2) Perhaps a delay that gives a sense of being in a largish room or hall, I estimate to be in the region of 350ms, but I don't hear any 'echoes' or 'repeats'.

3) Maybe an additional Reverb, or maybe only reverb as per item #2. I have tried Plate, Spring, Room, Hall, Magneto and "Diffuse" Bloom reverbs (Strymon BigSky).

The sound seems tantalisingly obvious and initially, I thought, easy to reach.

But I have exhausted Gilmourish, Kit and my own lexicon of guesses.

Please, if you know the secret sauce, please share it.

In return I will be willing to share any sounds from my arsenal I might have nailed.

I assume you have listened to the Money solo sound clips on my site that I isolated from the 5.1 surround mix? I also have have a breakdown that's not on my site that I ripped from the quad mix. It cycles through the different multi tracks and is more isolated than the surround stems. I would post it here, but the last time I did it got blocked.

The solo is a mix of multiple guitar tracks. Some tracks are relatively dry with a bit of plate reverb and some have Echorec delay and heavy reverb. I think the tracks in the first solo are probably all played through Twin Reverb, but one may be the Hiwatt. The dry solo sounds like a FF through a Twin Reverb. The third solo sounds like the Hiwatt.

For the intro David double tracked two different guitars in the L and R, each with a slightly different tone. One sounds like the guitar volume or fuzz knob is backed off, and delay. The other is the fuzz maxed with heavy reverb and delay. The delay is about 310ms with 2-3 repeats. The EMT 140 plate Reverbs at Abbey Road were used all over DSOTM, but I think the heavy reverb in this solo may simply be the spring reverb in David's Twin Reverb. In fact, Alan Parsons has said David was generating all the effects himself for the first solo.

For the third section, the multi tracks are really interesting. There is one track with the high gain FF, echo, and heavy reverb. The echo is about 380ms with 2-3 repeats, so that must have been head 4 on David's PE 603 Echorec. Another track sounds like slapback echo, which David has confirmed is ADT. A third track sounds like plate reverb, or possibly a distant room mic. In the quad mix stems I also hear a fouth dry guitar track. This solo may be made up of different takes, but all those different tracks sound like the same performance to my ears.

Because the studio solo is made up of so many different elements, it's difficult to replicate that sound with one guitar. I get close to the first solo using a 310ms delay and the reverb in my spring reverb. For the third solo I use a 380ms delay, slapback echo, and plate reverb from my FTT Ambi Space.

Last edited: May 27, 2021